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Authors' reply to David Elms' discussion of ‘Integrating the liberal arts into the body of knowledge for civil engineering systems engineers’ 作者对David Elms关于“将文科融入土木工程系统工程师的知识体系”的讨论的回复
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980559
G. Masterton
ABSTRACT The author’s reply to David Elms welcomes the supportive comments and offers a visualisation of the body of knowledge required of a systems engineer, building on the ‘T-shaped' person construct. The systems engineer requires a series of pillars of deep domain knowledge, acquired throughout a lifetime of experience, with serial capstones representing the synthesis and integration of that knowledge. Many of the capstones should be from the distant territories of ‘liberal arts' – leading to ‘Stonehenge-shaped people'.
作者对David Elms的回复欢迎支持性评论,并提供了一个系统工程师所需知识体系的可视化,建立在“t形”人结构的基础上。系统工程师需要一系列深入领域知识的支柱,这些知识是通过一生的经验获得的,具有代表该知识的综合和集成的一系列顶点。许多顶点石应该来自遥远的“文科”领域——导致“巨石阵形状的人”。
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引用次数: 0
Discussion of ‘Practical wisdom in an age of computerisation’ by David Blockley David Blockley关于“计算机时代的实用智慧”的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980544
D. Elms
ABSTRACT The writer agrees with the main point of the paper which is to emphasise the need for civil engineering systems engineers to have ‘practical wisdom’. Insofar as this is not clearly defined the discussion offers an example from practice where practical wisdom was lacking. Blockley’s paper lists major challenges, including computerisation. The present discussion suggests others as important additions, with the most important omission being the ‘black swans’ of complex and unexpected problems. System thinking is well placed to tackle such issues.
作者同意本文的主要观点,即强调土木工程系统工程师需要具有“实践智慧”。由于这一点没有明确的定义,讨论提供了一个缺乏实践智慧的例子。布洛克利的论文列出了主要挑战,包括计算机化。目前的讨论提出了其他重要的补充,最重要的遗漏是复杂和意外问题的“黑天鹅”。系统思维可以很好地解决这些问题。
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引用次数: 1
BOK and terminology BOK和术语
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980543
D. Carmichael
To this writer, it seems that a Civil Engineering Systems Body of Knowledge (‘Special Issue’ – Dias and Jowitt, 2020) cannot progress until there is agreement on the meanings of terms. Mature technical disciplines in the sciences, medicine and engineering have been able to develop because there is agreement on the meaning of terms. More recent disciplines such as popular management are not developing, and perhaps even going backwards, because terms are used differently by different people and differently by the same person within the one context; multiple uses and meanings for terms prevent understanding. Without agreement on meaning, the encoding and decoding present in two-way communication goes awry. Lay usage of terms and the multiple definitions found in dictionaries are not suitable for discipline-specific communication; for example, Carmichael (2016) shows the pitfalls with using dictionary meanings when referring to ‘risk’, Carmichael (2020a) highlights the confusion in using the term ‘objective’, and ‘uncertainty’ and ‘problem’ have different meanings among the Special Issue papers. The multiple meanings for words found in dictionaries are exploited by comedians, poets and playwrights, but inhibit a technical discipline’s development. And where English is not a person’s first language, the situation is exacerbated.
对于本文作者而言,土木工程系统知识体系(“特刊”- Dias和Jowitt, 2020)在对术语的含义达成一致之前似乎无法取得进展。科学、医学和工程等成熟的技术学科之所以能够发展,是因为对术语的含义达成了一致。最近的学科,如大众管理,没有发展,甚至可能倒退,因为不同的人使用不同的术语,同一个人在同一背景下使用不同的术语;术语的多种用法和含义阻碍了理解。没有意义上的一致,双向交流中的编码和解码就会出错。术语的外行用法和词典中的多重定义不适合特定学科的交流;例如,Carmichael(2016)展示了在提及“风险”时使用字典含义的陷阱,Carmichael (2020a)强调了使用术语“目标”时的混淆,“不确定性”和“问题”在特刊论文中具有不同的含义。喜剧演员、诗人和剧作家利用字典中单词的多重含义,但却阻碍了一门技术学科的发展。如果英语不是一个人的第一语言,情况就更糟了。
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引用次数: 0
Author's reply to: David Blockley's discussion of the special issue 作者回复:David Blockley对特刊的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980550
D. Carmichael
Professor Blockley makes a pertinent observation, namely that of the ‘large differences of approach ranging at the extremes from formal (Carmichael) to the informal (Elms)’ within the contributions to the Special Issue. For Civil Engineering Systems to develop as a discipline, it is my belief that some underlying formal structure to knowledge is necessary and this is the thinking behind the BOK Framework proposed in Carmichael (2020). Certainly, not everything can be formalised, individuals will add their informality in any situation, some individuals have an inherent dislike of structure, and many people while maybe clever are not structured thinkers and happily co-exist with shuffled ideas, but an agreed underlying structure will be necessary at some stage in the development of Civil Engineering Systems, as it is in all wellestablished disciplines in engineering. Why not start developing that structure now? Professor Blockley mentions reductionism and emergentism, though the intent of the comments is unclear. Reductionism, to my understanding, attempts an explanation of entire systems in terms of their individual, constituent parts and their interactions. The interactions mean that the whole is not simplistically the sum of the parts. Emergentism, to my understanding, relates to studying systems at their highest level where the properties of the whole are more than the sum of the parts. Systems thinking incorporates reductionism and emergentism as described in the above senses, and this is embodied in the BOK Framework put forward (Carmichael, 2020). Interestingly, the terms reductionism or emergentism appear to be rarely mentioned in any discussion on Civil Engineering Systems, possibly because engineers prefer to explain the relationship between a system and its subsystems in plain terms, unencumbered largely by terms with non-agreed meanings. The historical presence of the terms reductionism and emergentism means that some people lean naturally towards systems-type thinking without any formal education or knowledge in systems. Of course, the terms and practices of reductionism and emergentism can be interpreted in multiple ways.
布洛克利教授做了一个中肯的观察,即在特刊的投稿中,“从正式(卡迈克尔)到非正式(埃尔姆斯)的极端方法的巨大差异”。对于土木工程系统作为一门学科的发展,我相信一些潜在的正式知识结构是必要的,这就是Carmichael(2020)提出的BOK框架背后的想法。当然,并不是所有的东西都可以形式化,个人会在任何情况下加入他们的非正式性,有些人天生不喜欢结构,许多人虽然聪明,但不是结构化的思想家,并且乐于与混乱的想法共存,但是在土木工程系统发展的某个阶段,商定的潜在结构是必要的,因为它是在所有成熟的工程学科中。为什么不现在就开始发展这种结构呢?布洛克利教授提到了还原论和紧急主义,尽管他的评论意图尚不清楚。在我看来,还原论试图从个体、组成部分及其相互作用的角度来解释整个系统。相互作用意味着整体不是简单的部分之和。根据我的理解,涌现主义是指在最高层次上研究系统,在这个层次上,整体的属性大于部分的总和。系统思维包含了上述意义上的还原论和紧急主义,这体现在提出的BOK框架中(Carmichael, 2020)。有趣的是,在任何关于土木工程系统的讨论中,还原论或紧急主义这两个术语似乎很少被提及,可能是因为工程师更喜欢用简单的术语来解释系统及其子系统之间的关系,而不受意义不一致的术语的影响。还原论和紧急主义这两个术语的历史存在意味着一些人在没有任何正式教育或系统知识的情况下自然地倾向于系统型思维。当然,还原论和涌现论的术语和实践可以有多种解释。
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引用次数: 0
At one with systems 与系统一致
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980542
D. Carmichael
A number of contributions in the Special Issue on a Civil Engineering Systems Body of Knowledge (‘Special Issue’ – Dias and Jowitt 2020), refer to education as it relates to systems, and systems thinking. For example, Masterton and Jeffrey (2020), Delatte (2020) and Jowitt (2020). Based on observations over many years, some personal views are expressed here on the topic. The observations have not been processed through the scientific method (Carmichael 2013), but they do have the support of much classroom testing and noting the behaviour of practising engineers. An observation (based on a finite sample) is put forward to generate thought and discussion within the systems community; not everyone may have observed the same or agree with it, while others may think it is self-obvious: Some people naturally think in terms of systems and some people do not naturally think in terms of systems. This has ramifications for systems education, any expectation of systems-type thinking from people, and the place of systems courses in a Civil Engineering programme. It appears that people are either configured or receptive to systems ideas, exampled by the Special Issue papers (even if the detail is not agreed with), or they are not. It also follows in a sort of corollary fashion that those who are not attuned to systems thinking will take issue with the above observation, or not appreciate that there is a difference between systems thinking and non-systems thinking. This is not a nature versus nurture argument. Some people may use the word ‘system’ (often where a more appropriate term should be used) and other system-discipline words, draw block diagrams with links, apply linear programming or some simulation package, etc and generally look and sound as though they are thinking systems, but underneath they are not thinking systems. Some publications may purport to be systems-based but they are not. There may also not be a realisation on the part of authors and reviewers that they are not truly systems people, though they may have a self-belief that they are. People who are not systems people seem not to be able to distinguish genuine systems thinking from non-genuine systems thinking, and people who do not naturally think in terms of systems cannot be successfully taught to be systems people. At best, they can be led in a direction. This viewpoint, of course, is difficult to prove because currently there is no accepted measure for systems thinking; this is expanded upon below. To illustrate, consider a parallel with ‘creativity’. People are either creative or not creative, even allowing for creativity manifesting itself in a variety of ways and pursuits. Oscar
《土木工程系统知识体系特刊》(“特刊”- Dias和Jowitt 2020)中的许多文章都提到了与系统和系统思维相关的教育。例如Masterton and Jeffrey (2020), Delatte(2020)和Jowitt(2020)。根据多年来的观察,在此就这个问题发表一些个人看法。这些观察结果并没有通过科学的方法进行处理(Carmichael 2013),但它们确实得到了许多课堂测试的支持,并注意到执业工程师的行为。提出了一个观察(基于有限样本),以在系统社区内产生思考和讨论;并不是每个人都观察到相同或同意它,而其他人可能认为这是不言而喻的:有些人自然地从系统的角度来思考,有些人则不自然地从系统的角度来思考。这对系统教育、人们对系统型思维的任何期望以及系统课程在土木工程课程中的地位都有影响。看起来人们要么被配置好了,要么接受了系统的想法,例如特刊的论文(即使细节不一致),要么他们不是。它还以一种必然的方式遵循,那些不适应系统思维的人将对上述观察提出质疑,或者不认识到系统思维和非系统思维之间存在差异。这不是先天与后天的争论。有些人可能会使用“系统”一词(通常应该使用更合适的术语)和其他系统学科词汇,绘制带有链接的框图,应用线性规划或一些模拟包等,通常看起来和听起来好像他们是思考系统,但实际上他们并不是思考系统。一些出版物可能声称是基于系统的,但它们不是。作者和审稿人可能也没有意识到他们不是真正的系统人员,尽管他们可能相信自己是。不是系统人的人似乎无法区分真正的系统思维和非真正的系统思维,而那些天生不从系统角度思考的人也无法被成功地培养成系统人。充其量,他们可以被引导到一个方向。当然,这种观点很难证明,因为目前还没有公认的衡量系统思维的标准;这将在下面展开。为了说明这一点,请考虑与“创造力”的相似之处。人要么有创造力,要么没有创造力,甚至允许创造力以各种方式和追求表现出来。奥斯卡
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引用次数: 0
Discussion of Paul Jowitt’s paper ‘Systems and sustainability’ Paul Jowitt论文“系统与可持续性”的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980547
D. Elms
ABSTRACT Jowitt’s paper suggests that civil engineering systems engineers require an ethical imperative and a set of specific attributes. The ethics should include a broad understanding of value and values. Attributes of a successful systems-capable civil engineer are listed in a table stemming from an international workshop. They can be summed up in terms of ASK: Attitude, Skills and Knowledge.
Jowitt的论文表明,土木工程系统工程师需要一种道德规范和一套特定的属性。伦理应该包括对价值和价值的广泛理解。一个成功的系统能力的土木工程师的属性被列在一个表源于一个国际研讨会。它们可以总结为ASK:态度、技能和知识。
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引用次数: 0
Discussion of ‘Integrating the liberal arts into the body of knowledge for civil engineering systems engineers’ by Gordon G. T. Masterton and Paul Jeffrey Gordon G. T. Masterton和Paul Jeffrey关于“将文科融入土木工程系统工程师的知识体系”的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980553
D. Elms
ABSTRACT Systems engineers require breadth. Three approaches are discussed. The first is to develop a clear goal in the form of the attributes of a well-educated civil engineering systems specialist (CESS) – what such an engineer would be like. The second, complementary to the first, proposes a goal in terms of what the ideal CESS could do well as a series of tasks or actions. The third is to produce a list of books whose reading would result in a well-educated CEES.
系统工程师需要广度。讨论了三种方法。首先是制定一个明确的目标,以一个受过良好教育的土木工程系统专家(CESS)的属性的形式——这样一个工程师会是什么样子。第二部分是对第一部分的补充,它提出了一个目标,即理想的CESS可以作为一系列任务或行动做好什么。第三种是列出一份书单,这些书的阅读将使一个受过良好教育的cee学生受益。
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引用次数: 0
Reply to discussion by D. Blockley of the CEES Special Issue on the body of knowledge for CE systems engineers 回复D. Blockley在CEES特刊上关于CE系统工程师知识体系的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980558
D. Elms
ABSTRACT This reply to David Blockley’s discussion addresses the issue of relevant knowledge, the need for an ability to learn, the distinction between types of system, the need to expand our understanding of uncertainty, implications for education and the incompleteness of the body of knowledge referred to in the BOK Special Issue of Civil Engineering and Environmental Systems.
本文对David Blockley的讨论的回复涉及相关知识的问题,学习能力的需要,系统类型之间的区别,扩展我们对不确定性的理解的需要,对教育的影响以及在BOK土木工程和环境系统特刊中提到的知识体系的不完整性。
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引用次数: 0
Response to Discussion by Elms on “Systems and Sustainability” 回应Elms关于“系统与可持续发展”的讨论
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980554
P. Jowitt
I am grateful to David Elms for his kind comments on my paper and for extending the conversation. While there are some rich systems ideas in areas of “pure engineering” (eg duality and contragredience in the analysis of water, structural, electrical and other networks, and which is captured and revealed by a common – and beautiful – underlying mathematical framework), systems comes into its own when used to address real world complex problems. Not least, sustainability. It doesn’t give the answer, but it provides the framework for finding one. Nothing is hidden. Disagreements can be out in the open. Discrimination – and not to be confused with prejudice – can be used to compare different options. In that sense, yes, my paper was a call to action. And I hope that young teenage girl who was at my lecture in Christchurch in 2010 is now working on the systems level solutions to ensure a sustainable future.
我很感谢David Elms对我的论文的评论,以及他对我们谈话的延伸。虽然在“纯工程”领域有一些丰富的系统思想(例如,水、结构、电力和其他网络分析中的对偶性和矛盾性,并由一个共同的、美丽的底层数学框架捕获和揭示),但当用于解决现实世界的复杂问题时,系统就有了自己的用处。尤其是可持续性。它没有给出答案,但它提供了寻找答案的框架。没有什么是隐藏的。分歧可以是公开的。歧视——不要与偏见混淆——可以用来比较不同的选择。从这个意义上说,是的,我的论文是一个行动的号召。我希望2010年在克赖斯特彻奇听我演讲的那个年轻女孩现在正在研究系统层面的解决方案,以确保可持续的未来。
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引用次数: 0
CEES special issue – the body of knowledge for systems 2020 CEES特刊- 2020年系统知识体系
IF 1.8 3区 工程技术 Q2 Engineering Pub Date : 2021-10-02 DOI: 10.1080/10286608.2021.1980541
D. Blockley
The question ‘What is Civil Engineering Systems – CES?’was posed by the editors not as an attempt to arrive at a set of common definitions but more to foster conversation around the issues. The disparate contributions to this special edition have achieved that goal by exposing very large differences of approach ranging at the extremes from the formal (Carmichael) to the informal (Elms). The editors also ask what constitutes a ‘BOK’ – Body of Knowledge for CEES. This question begs many further questions such as what is ‘knowledge’ anyway when we cannot predict the behaviour of a deterministic non-linear hinged pendulum after just a few cycles? What is the role of science in engineering and how do they both relate to technology in an age when STEM is dominated in the minds of so many people by the S? What is uncertainty when so many theorists deny looking beyond statistics and probability to embrace ambiguity, incompleteness and unknown unknowns? How do we categorise and manage uncertainty to make our systems resilient, sustainable and robust against ‘surprises’ like banking collapses and pandemics never mind the challenges of climate change? How do we learn from mistakes when accidents and disasters like Grenfell follow similar patterns to previous disasters of history? How does CEES relate to the wider world of politics and economics and the arts? Should STEM be expanded to STEAMM to include the arts and medicine? The implied assumptions in the various papers about the questions seem to depend on the experiences of each author and their necessarily partial reading of the massive amount of material available to a modern researcher. That is natural and to be expected – but is incumbent on us all who follow a systems approach to embrace all relevant points of view (particularly the journals relating to civil engineering) and adapt and learn from them. That is the real value of this Special Issue. The editors compared contribution under nine headings (Jowitt and Dias Table 1). I looked at the responses of the authors to some other key system ideas which, for brevity I will restrict to just five – complexity, uncertainty, emergence, interdependence and learning. All authors refer to complexity but only Whyte et al discuss it in any depth although Jowitt differentiates between complicated as rich in detail and complex as rich in structure. No-one refers to the sense-making models called Cynefin which differentiate the complex and messy (high emergent uncertainty, interconnectedness and conflict) from the complicated (highly interconnected but well understood),
“什么是土木工程系统?”的问题,编辑们提出这个问题并不是为了得出一套通用的定义,更多的是为了促进围绕这些问题的讨论。对这个特别版的不同贡献通过揭示从正式(卡迈克尔)到非正式(埃尔姆斯)的极端方法的巨大差异,实现了这一目标。编辑们还询问了什么构成了“BOK”——面向CEES的知识体系。这个问题引出了许多进一步的问题,比如,当我们不能在几个周期后预测确定性非线性铰链摆的行为时,“知识”到底是什么?科学在工程中的作用是什么?在一个许多人都认为STEM是科学的时代,科学和技术又是如何联系在一起的?当如此多的理论家否认超越统计和概率去拥抱模糊性、不完整性和未知的未知时,不确定性是什么?我们如何对不确定性进行分类和管理,使我们的系统能够抵御银行崩溃和流行病等“意外”,更不用说气候变化的挑战,从而具有弹性、可持续性和健壮性?当像格伦费尔这样的事故和灾难与历史上的灾难相似时,我们如何从错误中吸取教训?CEES如何与更广阔的政治、经济和艺术世界联系起来?STEM是否应该扩展到steam以包括艺术和医学?关于这些问题的各种论文中隐含的假设似乎取决于每个作者的经验,以及他们对现代研究人员可用的大量材料的必要的部分阅读。这是自然的,也是意料之中的——但我们所有遵循系统方法的人都有责任接受所有相关的观点(特别是与土木工程相关的期刊),并适应并从中学习。这才是本期特刊的真正价值所在。编辑们在九个标题下比较了贡献(Jowitt和Dias表1)。我看了作者对其他一些关键系统思想的回应,为简洁起见,我将其限制为五个-复杂性,不确定性,涌现性,相互依赖性和学习。所有的作者都提到了复杂性,但只有Whyte等人深入讨论了复杂性,尽管Jowitt区分了细节丰富的复杂和结构丰富的复杂。没有人提到被称为Cynefin的意义构建模型,该模型将复杂和混乱(高度紧急的不确定性,相互联系和冲突)与复杂(高度相互联系但很好理解)区分开来,
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引用次数: 0
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Civil Engineering and Environmental Systems
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